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Offline snake85

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« Reply #340 on: September 21, 2009, 02:22:28 PM »
za nas iz posleednjih redova....sta je to TRT??   :blush: :blush:
kakve su ti misli takav ti je zivot!!!

Offline Boki4

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« Reply #341 on: September 21, 2009, 02:29:26 PM »
Ja sam citao da u 99% slucajeva PCT uopste ne treba raditi jer koji ce mi jos vise lijekova u sistemu (pogotovo nolvadexa koji se ovde spominje kao bezazlena stvar,a mnogo je zajeban),a vecini ce se hormonalna slika vratiti sa vremenom.PCT treba da rade samo oni koji imaju viska ženskih hormona prirodno i tesko im se vraća prirodni test.Tako nešto sam bar ja naučio čitajući razne studije,postove ljudi koji su dugo u cijeloj priči i strane forume.Ja sam lično protiv PCT-a.

Offline Pedja Petrovic

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« Reply #342 on: September 21, 2009, 02:41:13 PM »
Quote
Cinjenica je da neprirodni test vrsi supresiju proizvodnje prirodnog testa i cinjenica je da od duzine ciklusa i vrste steoida zavisi kolika ce bitti supresija...cinjenica je takoder da se test moze vratiti i prirodno u nekim slucajeviima ali za taj "prirodni povratak" vecini treba dugo vremena a cilj pct-a je  da sto prije vratis na prirodno stanje ili das ubrzani signal tjelu da je neophodno da pocne odmah praviti test da bi sto prije mogao opet na ciklus.

ma ja se sa tobom slazem-samo hocu da kazem to i poptpuno sam nebitan ja u ovoj prici,tj hteo sam da kazem da bi neko krenuo u ili na terapiju trebalo bi da vidi sta je uradjeno i kolika je steta
o tome govrim
ja sam radio jednom pct kada mi je palo na pamet da se igram sa velikim dozama tj velikim dozama za mene te sam isao 1250mg i to je za mene bilo razor sistema
oprovaljao sam se skoro 6 meseci od te ludosti sto sam uradio i hormonalne pretrage su tada pokazale DA TREBAM TERAPIJU za vrcanje hormona
samo to samo hteo da naglism da sam misljenja da neko na 500 mg testa kroz 10 nedelja tj mislljena sam da vecina ne treba pct
i naravno da ja ne protivrjecim medicini stari moj,ali pojam PCT je veoma sirok i velik a klinci ga pogresno shvataju tj ne razumiju i oni pct gledaju kao nesto sto ce da im sacuva kao misice koje nisu ni dobili i onda se vrtimo u krug em su se trovali sa aas i sada se razbijaju sa citostaticima
eto...valjda sad uspjedoh da objasnim

Quote
Sto se tice gustavo badel,denis wolf,marcos cahon,mustava mohamed,denis james ja ti mogu garantovati da oni nikada nisu skroz off i da su uvijek barem na TRT-u.
ma mozda sam naveo npr pogresne ljude tj za ove znam licno da je tako kako sam rekao,i da su oni stalno online i to je tacno,ali znam i npr periode gde je i denis bio off ali nije uzmao nista,hidetada npr dok je gulio zatvor skinuli su ga dirketno sa hemije i to posle ko zna nakog kolkog vremena i verj mi a rec da mu u zatvor nije mogao niko da donese lekove za pct itd
da sada ne nabrjam sve i svasta

Quote
Vecina  bildera koje ja znam svi do jednog ako zele da se skinu privremeno sa steroida rade PCT zato sto zele da ubrzaju oporava

eto npr,a ja sam ti gore nabrojao momke sa kjima sam stalno a i pored njih znam toliko momamka koji su aktivni takmicari a da ti ne nabrajam one koji se ne takmice i da niko ne radi pct...a nisam ih ja nagovarao majke mi  :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Offline sele137

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« Reply #343 on: September 21, 2009, 03:17:39 PM »

 da ti ne nabrajam one koji se ne takmice i da niko ne radi pct...a nisam ih ja nagovarao majke mi  :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Jesi jesi znam ja tebe  :lol:

Moram sad kod punice...drzite mi palceve  :boxed:
http://www.healthdesigns.com/rewardsref/index/refer/id/53104/

5$ Discount Code:4089008

If I had it to do all over again, the only injectable I would ever use is Testosterone. I wouldn't waste one shot on anything else!!!
__________________________________
TESTOSTERONE IS THE SPINAL CORD OF THE BODYBUILDER,,NO SYNTETIC TESTOSTERONE = NO BODYBUILDER
__________________________________


Natural





The pros are using good old-fashioned Testosterone, Deca, Dianabol, insulin in the off-season, and GH pre-contest. Nothing fancy. But they're the pros because they're gifted, dedicated, and have been at it a long freaking time. Anybody that tells you different is either full of shit or trying to sell you garbage.



My goals are very simple:

1. Break The Law
2. Look Good Naked

Steroids will cause your kidneys to explode, your heart to blow a ventricle, and your liver to squirt out of your arse, fly across the room, and knock the cat off the futon.

The most obvious symptom is death which would hardly be missed by even the most focused and intensive bodybuilder.

Offline sele137

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« Reply #344 on: September 21, 2009, 03:19:10 PM »
Ja sam citao da u 99% slucajeva PCT uopste ne treba raditi jer koji ce mi jos vise lijekova u sistemu (pogotovo nolvadexa koji se ovde spominje kao bezazlena stvar,a mnogo je zajeban),a vecini ce se hormonalna slika vratiti sa vremenom.PCT treba da rade samo oni koji imaju viska zenskih hormona prirodno i tesko im se vraca prirodni test.Tako nesto sam bar ja naucio citajuci razne studije,postove ljudi koji su dugo u cijeloj prici i strane forume.Ja sam licno protiv PCT-a.


Gdje si to citao ? Pricas sa gospodinom zvani referenca  :lol: daj mi sajtove i refernce...barem neke...
http://www.healthdesigns.com/rewardsref/index/refer/id/53104/

5$ Discount Code:4089008

If I had it to do all over again, the only injectable I would ever use is Testosterone. I wouldn't waste one shot on anything else!!!
__________________________________
TESTOSTERONE IS THE SPINAL CORD OF THE BODYBUILDER,,NO SYNTETIC TESTOSTERONE = NO BODYBUILDER
__________________________________


Natural





The pros are using good old-fashioned Testosterone, Deca, Dianabol, insulin in the off-season, and GH pre-contest. Nothing fancy. But they're the pros because they're gifted, dedicated, and have been at it a long freaking time. Anybody that tells you different is either full of shit or trying to sell you garbage.



My goals are very simple:

1. Break The Law
2. Look Good Naked

Steroids will cause your kidneys to explode, your heart to blow a ventricle, and your liver to squirt out of your arse, fly across the room, and knock the cat off the futon.

The most obvious symptom is death which would hardly be missed by even the most focused and intensive bodybuilder.

Offline sele137

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« Reply #345 on: September 21, 2009, 03:20:06 PM »
za nas iz posleednjih redova....sta je to TRT??   :blush: :blush:


Testosterone replacement therapy
http://www.healthdesigns.com/rewardsref/index/refer/id/53104/

5$ Discount Code:4089008

If I had it to do all over again, the only injectable I would ever use is Testosterone. I wouldn't waste one shot on anything else!!!
__________________________________
TESTOSTERONE IS THE SPINAL CORD OF THE BODYBUILDER,,NO SYNTETIC TESTOSTERONE = NO BODYBUILDER
__________________________________


Natural





The pros are using good old-fashioned Testosterone, Deca, Dianabol, insulin in the off-season, and GH pre-contest. Nothing fancy. But they're the pros because they're gifted, dedicated, and have been at it a long freaking time. Anybody that tells you different is either full of shit or trying to sell you garbage.



My goals are very simple:

1. Break The Law
2. Look Good Naked

Steroids will cause your kidneys to explode, your heart to blow a ventricle, and your liver to squirt out of your arse, fly across the room, and knock the cat off the futon.

The most obvious symptom is death which would hardly be missed by even the most focused and intensive bodybuilder.

Offline sele137

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« Reply #346 on: September 21, 2009, 03:57:28 PM »
Tako nesto sam bar ja naucio citajuci razne studije,postove ljudi koji su dugo u cijeloj prici i strane forume.Ja sam licno protiv PCT-a.


Posebno me interesuju te "razne studije" pa ako ti nije tesko volio bi da  procitam barem jednu !!!
http://www.healthdesigns.com/rewardsref/index/refer/id/53104/

5$ Discount Code:4089008

If I had it to do all over again, the only injectable I would ever use is Testosterone. I wouldn't waste one shot on anything else!!!
__________________________________
TESTOSTERONE IS THE SPINAL CORD OF THE BODYBUILDER,,NO SYNTETIC TESTOSTERONE = NO BODYBUILDER
__________________________________


Natural





The pros are using good old-fashioned Testosterone, Deca, Dianabol, insulin in the off-season, and GH pre-contest. Nothing fancy. But they're the pros because they're gifted, dedicated, and have been at it a long freaking time. Anybody that tells you different is either full of shit or trying to sell you garbage.



My goals are very simple:

1. Break The Law
2. Look Good Naked

Steroids will cause your kidneys to explode, your heart to blow a ventricle, and your liver to squirt out of your arse, fly across the room, and knock the cat off the futon.

The most obvious symptom is death which would hardly be missed by even the most focused and intensive bodybuilder.

Offline Boki4

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« Reply #347 on: September 21, 2009, 05:42:12 PM »
Getbig.com imas sticky o nolvadexu na podforumu steroidi.Takodje dosta profesionalaca,gurua i ostalih govore to da PCT ne treba raditi ukoliko nisi u toj grupi (koja je manjina) da tesko vraca prirodni testosteron.O ovim koji su dugo " on " ne mogu da pricam,a napisao sam ono sto sam procitao za ovu prvu grupu.Studije ne mogu da se sjetim,....

Offline Che_79

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« Reply #348 on: September 21, 2009, 09:38:38 PM »
sele137, trebao bi ti poslati PP ali ne mogu, dobijem error da ti je inbox pun. Ima li kakva alternativa za kontakt?
Mozes li poslati neku mail-adresu meni na PP?


Offline sele137

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« Reply #349 on: September 21, 2009, 10:58:56 PM »
Getbig.com imas sticky o nolvadexu na podforumu steroidi.Takodje dosta profesionalaca,gurua i ostalih govore to da PCT ne treba raditi ukoliko nisi u toj grupi (koja je manjina) da tesko vraca prirodni testosteron.O ovim koji su dugo " on " ne mogu da pricam,a napisao sam ono sto sam procitao za ovu prvu grupu.Studije ne mogu da se sjetim,....

Vidi brate...to sto ti govoris nisu reference...spomenuo si studije...studije koje pokazuju da netreba raditi pct nepostoje nego postoji hiljade studija koje govore da ga treba raditi i u dosta tih studija radi se o bodybilderima a ne obicnim ljudima!!!

Neznam koji guru-i govore da se netreba raditi pct? Vidis ja sam procitao svaku rijec na net-u vezano za steroide i apsolutno nigdje nisam nasao nijednog guru-a koji govori da se netreba raditi pct.
Otidi na bilo koji strani forum i kod vecine u podforumu steroidi ces naci sticky koji se zove post cycle therapy.

Mislim da sticky pod nazivom "Todays nolvadex tomorrows poison" sa getbig-a koji si ti naveo nije dovoljan da bi neko rekao da netreba raditi PCT i mislim da ti kao jedan mladi korisnik steroida nebi tako trebao donositi zakljucke !!!
Osim toga neznam kako si na osnovu studije iz 1978 koja je namjenjena zenama koje koriste nolvadex uspjeo skontati da netreba raditi PCT?!

Kad vec uzimas getbig kao referencu  :rolleyes01: ja cu uzeti npr. Muscular Development forum gdje postoji Sticky pod nazivom post cycle therapy to je prepisani text od jednog od steroidnih gurua koji je napisao kjnigu anabolici :

Post Cycle Therapy




BACKGROUND

When you take AAS, your body stops making natural hormones (i.e., test). Once you stop taking steroids, you can be left with a gap until your body starts making its own again, which can take months. Here, you can be faced with low levels of androgens and normal levels of corticosteroids. Corticosteroids have a pronounced catabolic (muscle-depleting) state on our bodies, and without the androgens to balance the catabolic effects of corticosteroids, a good deal of your new muscle mass may be lost. To help your body maintain its size, you will want to restore endogenous (natural) testosterone production quickly. The methods for doing this seem to be different everywhere you look: "Take HCG, don't take HCG, use an aromatase inhibitor, just take Clomid, forget Clomid and just take Nolvadex." What option is reall best? Without an understanding of what is really happeningin your body, and why certain compounds help to correct the situation, choosing he correct PCT program can be quite confusing.

The HPTA Axis

The Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis (HPTA) is the thermostat for your body's natural production of testosterone. Too much testosterone, and the furnace will shut off. Not enough, and the heat is turned up (to put it very simply). For the purpose of our discussion, we can look at this regulating process as having three levels. At the top is the hypothalamic region of the brain, which releases the hormone GnRH (Gonadotropin-Releasing Hormone) when it senses a need for more testosterone. GnRH sends a signal to the second level of the axis, the pituitary, which releases Luteinizing Hormone in response. LH for short, this hormone stimulates the testes (level three) to secrete testosterone. The same sex steroids (testosterone, estrogen) that are produced serve to counterbalance things, by providing negative feedback signals (primarily to the hypothalamus and pituitary) to lower the secretion of testosterone. Synthetic steroids send the same negative feedback. This quick background of the testosterone-regulating axis is necessary to furthering our discussion, as we need to first look at the underlying mechanism involved before we can understand why natural recovery of the HPTA post-cycle is a slow process. Only then can we implement an ancillary drug program to effectively deal with it.

Testicular Desensitization

Although steroids suppress testosterone production primarily by lowering the level of gonadotropic hormones, the big roadblock to a restored HPTA after we come off steroids is surprisingly not LH. This problem was made clearly evident in a study published back in 1975. Here, blood parameters, including testosterone and LH levels, were monitored in male subjects who were given testosterone enanthate injections of 250mg weekly for 21 weeks, a low dose for even a beginner's cycle. Subjects remained under investigation for an additional 18 weeks after the drug was discontinued. At the start of the study, LH levels became suppressed in direct relation to the rise in testosterone, which was to be expected. Things looked very different, however, once the steroids had been withdrawn. LH levels went on the rise quickly (by the 3rd week), while testosterone barely budged for quite some time. In fact, on average, it was more than 10 weeks before any noticeable movement in testosterone production started at all! This lack of correlation makes clear that the problem in getting androgen levels restored is not necessarily the level of LH, but more so testicular atrophy and desensitization to LH. After a period of inactivation, the testes have lost mass (atrophied), making them unable to perform the required workload. The protracted post-cycle window can, likewise, no longer be looked at as one of low testosterone and low LH. Much of it actually involves low testosterone and normal (even high) LH.





The PoWeR PCT Program

The PCT program outlined below represents what I consider to be an ideal and effective PCT program. It was developed by the doctors at the Program for Wellness Restoration (PoWeR), who have a formidable history helping patients recover from abnormal hormonal functioning following steroid therapy. One of the key doctors on this program, Dr. Michael Scally, claims to have successfully treated more than 100 cases of hypogonadism/hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, and is very well known in the field of androgen replacement therapy. PoWeR published this program as part of a recent clinical study, which involved 19 healthy male subject who were taking supraphysiological (highly suppressive) doses of testosterone cypionate and nandrolone decanoate for 12 weeks. Their HPGA Normalization Protocol focuses on the combined use of HCG, Nolvadex, and Clomid, and is perhaps the only clinical documented post-cycle therapy program to be found in the medical literature (it is amazing how little attention has been paid to hormone normalization in clinical medicine). The most notable variation from a classic PCT stack, such that I have been a longtime supporter of, is the combined use of two anti-estrogens. In this case I cannot say there is a disadvantage to such us; perhaps it is indeed the better option.

NOLVADEX: ran for 45 days from day 1
CLOMID: ran for 30 days from day 1
HCG: ran for 16 days from day 1
(Day after drug cessation)


Examining the program closely, we note that the testes are hit hard with HCG at the onset of therapy. Its intake, however, is limited to only 16 days. The doctors undoubtedly recognize that when HCG is taken for too long or at too high a dosage it can desensitize the LH receptor. This would only further exacerbate the post-cycle program, not help it. Anti-estrogens are used during and after HCG, with a dosage of 10mg of Nolvadex and 100mg of Clomid per day, rounding out this compliment of drugs. Clomid is used for a shorter period of time than Nolvadex, likely because of the desensitizing effect it too can have (on the pituitary gland) with continued use. Among other things, these two anti-estrogens will continue to foster LH release as testosterone levels start to go back up, as well as combat any potential estrogenic side effects that may be caused by HCG's up-regulation of testicular aromatase activity. Although the first couple of weeks the anti-estrogens probably do very little, they should be much more helpful toward the middle and end of the program. During this clinical investigation, normal hormonal function was restored in all subjects within 45 days of drug cessation. This is a definite success, far more favorable than the protracted recovery window noted in studies without PCT, such as the 250mg/week testosterone enanthate investigation. Such a detailed recovery program should follow any serious steroid cycle. It is the best way to maintain your gains at their maximum, and that is, after all, what we are after.






HPGA Normalization Protocol After Androgen Treatment
N Vergel, AL Hodge, MC Scally
Program for Wellness Restoration, PoWeR


Objective Results Discussion

To develop an approach to cycle androgens that would result in significant changes in body composition and accelerate the normalization of the hypothalamic pituitary gonadal axis (HPGA) after cessation of androgens.

Methods

An uncontrolled study of 19 HIV-negative eugonadal men, ages 23 – 57 years, administered testosterone cypionate and nandrolone decanoate for 12 weeks, and then were treated simultaneously with a combined regimen of human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) (2500 IU/QODx16d), clomiphene citrate (50 mg PO BID x 30d) and tamoxifen (20 mg PO QD x 45d), to restore the HPGA.

Results

Mean FFM by DEXA increased from 64.1 to 69.8 kg (p<.001); percent body fat decreased from 23.6 to 20.9 (p<.01); strength increased significantly from 357.4 lb to 406.4 lb (p=.02). No significant changes in serum chemistries and liver function tests were found. HDL-C decreased from a mean value of 44.3 to 38.0 (p=.02). Mean values for luteinizing hormone (LH) and total testosterone (T) were 4.5 and 460, respectively prior to androgen treatment. At the conclusion of the 12-week treatment with androgens the mean LH <0.7 (p<.001) and total testosterone was 1568 (p<.001). The mean values after treatment with the combined regimen were LH=6.2 and testosterone=458.

Discussion

The use of androgens has been reported to improve lean body mass, strength, sexual function, and mood accompanied by side effects caused by continuous uninterrupted use of these compounds (polycythemia, testicular atrophy, hypertension, liver dysfunction [oral androgens] and alopecia.) Androgen-induced HPGA suppression causes a severe hypogonadal state in most patients that often require an extensive period of considerable duration for normalization. This prevents most if not all individuals from cycling off these medications due to the adverse impact of this state on their previously gained LBM and quality of life. The protocol of hCG-clomiphene-tamoxifen was successful in restoring the HPGA within 45 days after androgen cessation. Further controlled studies are needed to determine if these results can be duplicated in HIV positive subjects.


PRACTICAL APPLICATION

The esters used in the abstract were cypionate and deconate however the administration of the PCT medications were started the day after aas cessation. Essentially the aas esters were still active when PCT began. The first 16 days a large amount of HCG was used in order to increase the mass of the testes so that they could sustain output of testosterone sooner. The HCG was stopped about the time the esters cleared so that estrogenic activity from the HCG would be reduced. During those first 16 days 2 different SERM’s were also employed (Clomid and Nolvadex)  This is a 100% success rate! After the HCG was discontinued both SERM’s were continued. The following is the exact protocol in laymen’s terms.

Day 1-16 : 2500iu HCG every other day.
Day 1-30 : Nolva 20mg/day; Clomid 100mg/day (50mg was taken twice per day)
Day 31-45 : Nolva 20mg/day

Nemoj me pogresno shvatiti ali stvarno si me zatekao sa tih 99% koji nepreporucuju pct jer situacija je upravo suprotna i licno nemogu da vjerujem da moram nekoga da ubjedujem u nesto sto je cinjenica i sto se vidi na netu!!!

No u odbranu PCT-a ja cu odsada kad god budem imao vremena postavljati ovdje studije i textove vezane za PCT i za potrebu odradivanja pct-a !!!
http://www.healthdesigns.com/rewardsref/index/refer/id/53104/

5$ Discount Code:4089008

If I had it to do all over again, the only injectable I would ever use is Testosterone. I wouldn't waste one shot on anything else!!!
__________________________________
TESTOSTERONE IS THE SPINAL CORD OF THE BODYBUILDER,,NO SYNTETIC TESTOSTERONE = NO BODYBUILDER
__________________________________


Natural





The pros are using good old-fashioned Testosterone, Deca, Dianabol, insulin in the off-season, and GH pre-contest. Nothing fancy. But they're the pros because they're gifted, dedicated, and have been at it a long freaking time. Anybody that tells you different is either full of shit or trying to sell you garbage.



My goals are very simple:

1. Break The Law
2. Look Good Naked

Steroids will cause your kidneys to explode, your heart to blow a ventricle, and your liver to squirt out of your arse, fly across the room, and knock the cat off the futon.

The most obvious symptom is death which would hardly be missed by even the most focused and intensive bodybuilder.