EXYU FITNESS FORUM
Ishrana, suplementi, stimulativna sredstva => ::Androgeno-anabolicki steroidi:: => Topic started by: Bildek-21 on February 10, 2007, 03:00:32 PM
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PCT - Post Cycle Therapy
PCT - Obavezno nakon svakog ciklusa:
Clomid:
--------- Dan 1 -- Dan 2 -- Dan 3 -- Dan 4 --- Dan 5 --- Dan 6 ----Dan 7
Tjedan 1. - 300 mg - 100 mg - 100 mg - 100 mg - 100 mg - 100 mg - 100 mg
Tjedan 2. - 100 mg - 100 mg - 100 mg - 100 mg - 50 mg --- 50 mg ---50 mg
Tjedan 3. -- 50 mg -- 50 mg -- 50 mg -- 50 mg -- 50 mg ---50 mg --- 50 mg
Clomid je selektivni kompetitivni inhibitor estrogenskih receptora. Posebno se efikasno 'lovi' na receptore u hipofizi, kada su isti tako zauzeti, na njih se ne lovi estrogen. To sprijecava da hipofiza detektira povisenje estrogena, i smanji lucenje LH i FSH, radi smanjenja ovog prvog, smanjuje se vlastita proizvodnja testosterona. Umjesto toga, hipofiza vidi (pre)nisku kolicinu estrogena, te povisuje lucenje LH i FSH a time i proizvodnju testosterona.
Clomid medjutim nije 100% sigurna stvar. U rijetkim slucajevima, Clomid ne djeluje, ili cak djeluje obrnuto (dakle kao 'pravi' estrogen), sto post-ciklusnu situaciju umjesto boljom, cinii znacajno gorom. Ovaj problem se rijetko spominje, no na moju zalost ja sam jedan od tih rijetkih slucajeva.
Preuzeto sa forum.teretana.net
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Dobar post na koj ke se nadovrzam so izvadok od knigata na Nelson Montana specijalno za Clomid ili Clomiphene.Posto tekstot e golem,nemav vreme da go preveduvam.Se nadevam ke bideod korist. :respect:
CLOMID - THE BIG LIE (Golemata laga)
Like everyone else who has ever read a single book (or every book for that matter) on the
proper use of anabolics, I usually included a course of Clomid after each cycle. It was the
responsible thing to do. So they say. There was just one little problem with this
procedure. It seemed to make the recovery and the return of libido, testicular size, sperm
count, seminal volume and normal testosterone levels worse. How can this be? Maybe I
was just a weird exception to the rule. One doctor suggested I might have some bizarre
feedback loop that gave the drug its negative effects. Maybe I was crazy. Maybe not.
The simple truth of the matter is this: the thinking on Clomid is based on some very
sketchy evidence which has been parroted endlessly among the bodybuilding community.
In a way, I'm at fault myself. Allow me to explain.
A few years back, I co-wrote an article with Brock Strasser called "The Steroid Summit."
In that piece, I mentioned Clomid and ejaculate volume. Where I was going with this was
the fact that I noticed a definite decrease in ejaculate volume and this would indicate that
Clomid wasn't doing what it was supposed to do. Brock replied "Oh yeah, Clomid will
definitely increase ejaculate" and he went on to say how male porn stars are using it to
enhance their "bursts of drama" so to speak. We were tackling a lot of topics and I didn't
want to dispute his contention so I let it go. At any rate, wouldn't you know... the rumor
about porn stars and Clomid ran rampant. I started hearing it everywhere, even in places
unassociated with bodybuilding.
I knew I couldn't be the only person experiencing negative effects from Clomid so I did a
little personal survey. It turns out I wasn't as weird as I thought. Out of over 100
bodybuilders I questioned, about 1 in 4 experienced in the use of steroids and aromatase
blockers admitted that Clomid didn't have the effects they were hoping for. Many also
claimed that Nolvadex, which has a very similar structure to Clomid, caused a loss in
libido and a weak ejaculation. Even among those who felt it helped them, there were
complaints about "emotional distress" and "weepiness", both of which suggest an
increase in estrogen. So how can anyone be sure Clomid is actually beneficial?
Still, the rumors persist.
I was on a popular internet message board recently and someone was claiming that they
weren't getting back their atrophied testicles even after using 50mgs of Clomid for two
weeks. The resident "guru" suggested taking 100mgs for another two weeks. This line of
thinking is straight from the middle ages when doctors prescribed leeches to cure a
disease -- if the patient got sicker from the treatment the solution was; more leeches!
Ridiculous? Of course. Some things never change.
There are several major problems associated with Clomid, as well as Arimidex,
Nolvadex, Teslac or any other estrogen blocker. For one thing, all these compounds are
indiscriminate in how much estrogen they block. So what's bad about that? Well, the
whole point of using an anti-estrogen is to protect against the spillover of estrogen that
comes with the excessive use of androgens. If the body can't metabolize all that
testosterone, it aromatizes into estrogens. What the experts fail to address is the fact that
the amount of aromatization varies greatly from individual to individual. If the steroid
dosages are moderate, there might not be any aromatization of any consequence, and the
anti-estrogens may lower levels below what they were normally! And keep one very
important fact in mind. A little estrogen in men is necessary for a healthy libido. (It's
also necessary for other things such as bone density, skin tone, etc., but I can't think of
anything more important to most men than their dicks.)
More recently, it's even been suggested that estrogen may play a role in the proliferation
of androgen receptors. This may explain why some experienced steroid users claim that
they get decreased results when adding an anti-estrogen to their stack. It was once
thought that anti-estrogens such as Nolvadex decreased IGF-1, but this has not been
validated with any concrete evidence. Nevertheless, studies done on rats found that
androgen receptor binding was dramatically increased after the administration of
estradiol, increasing the anabolic potency of the androgenic steroid. If nothing else, this
shows that estrogen is, on some level, directly or indirectly involved in the process of
promoting muscle growth. There's also the added element of strength and size gains due
to the water retention that estrogen inflicts. And just as a kicker, anti- estrogens may also
increase sex hormone binding globulin which is the last thing you want when coming off
a cycle.
In the case of Clomid, the effects may be even worse than other anti-estrogens since
Clomid is a mild estrogen itself. The basic theory behind its use (which is sounding more
and more stupid every day) is essentially that the Clomid will occupy the estrogen
receptor sites thus disallowing the formation of more estrogen. Maybe. What's more
likely in cases where estrogen levels are normal, the Clomid will simply add more
estrogen. This may the reason for some people's apparent aversion to Clomid and its
estrogen-like side effects.
Even if Clomid did lower estrogen, there's no evidence that lower estrogen will
necessarily lead to increased testosterone, yet this is the premise which everyone follows.
Clomid has also been known to produce a decrease in the LH response to LH releasing
hormone. This is something that has been known for a while, (findings on this date as far
back as 1978) yet curiously ignored. Naturally, studies aren't conducted to benefit the
bodybuilder on steroids, so we must learn to read between the line sometimes. In doing
so, conclusions can be drawn. All too often steroid gurus draw them incorrectly.
The notion of increased sperm count is also one of contention. Allow me to get technical
for a moment and break my own rule about references for a second while I cite this
quote from a study done on Clomid.
"Treatments with idiopathic oligospermia for six to nine months resulted in a significant
increase in gonadotropin testosterone and estradiol levels. A significant increase in
sperm density was observed only in subjects with low sperm count below normal basal
FSH levels. In cases where sperm density increased, FSH levels decreased, suggesting an
inhibitory effect."
What this suggests in plain English is that not everyone reacts to Clomid treatment in the
same way and sperm levels must be abnormally suppressed for the drug to be of any
benefit. And even in situations where that is the case, the side effect was lowered Follicle
Stimulating Hormone, which as you may know, controls the amount of Leutinizing
Hormone we release which in turn regulates how much testosterone we have. This is why
so many bodybuilders claim to crash after coming off of the Clomid.
Judging from this information it's clear that Clomid, at best, is a crap shoot and its
benefits, if any, are temporary. So why is everyone still taking it?
Of course, this is hypothesis on my part and a lot of the pedants and pundits will refuse to
acknowledge it. After all, all the pros use Clomid. Why should anyone listen to me?
They don't have to, but they should.
I was speaking with Jerry Brainum on this very subject. I should mention, Jerry, unlike
some of the self-appointed experts that abound on the internet and the world of
underground newsletters, is one of the most knowledgeable people in the business on the
subject of nutrition and pharmacology. He's been writing on the subject before most of
these pseudo whiz kids were born. He knows everybody who is anybody in the world of
bodybuilding. When I mentioned my theories about Clomid he said to me;
"You're not alone. I don't know a single pro who still uses Clomid."
This in itself speaks volumes. Of course, it may not be the best validation for my
argument since there are plenty of pro bodybuilders who are complete jackasses when it
comes to knowledge and application of anabolics. He or she usually hires someone who
knows something, or more likely, can get something. The protocol is then to load the
syringe to the top and keep shooting until the stash is gone. Nevertheless, the fact that
Clomid has lost its allure among the higher echelon on the bodybuilding ranks is a sure
sign it isn't working well. If it did, they'd all use it, even if they stayed on 365 days a
year. Who wouldn't want to maintain testicular size and increase natural production while
keeping estrogen low? If Clomid was effective in doing so, there'd be no reason to stop.
They know what works and what doesn't. And they know that Clomid sucks. (Of course,
there's always some lunkhead who doesn't catch on right away.)
One last thing to keep in mind: Back in the 60's and early 70's no one used antiestrogens.
Look at the pictures of the stars of that time and you'd be hard pressed to find a
case of gyno anywhere. Food for thought.
The bottom line: If dosages are kept sane, Clomid wouldn't be needed -- even if it worked
well, which it doesn't.
Forget Clomid. For more effective methods of keeping excess estrogen in check, read on.
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bilo bi lepo da si ovo preveo..posto verujem da mnogi nece znati strucnu terminolgoiju itd..itd..itd..mislim..copy/paste i nije bas neka nauka i obajsnjnje
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Fino sto sam knjigu procitao,pa sam ovo nasao zar ne? I to je nesto...
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Fino sto sam knjigu procitao,pa sam ovo nasao zar ne? I to je nesto...
..if you say so..
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Je bolje napravit PCT sa Clomidom, ili sa Nolvadexom??
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ja vijerujem da je sa nolvadexom posto clomid zna napraviti poptuno suprotnu stvar
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Zavisi koliko je jak ciklus i sta je u njemu ,koji je po redu i kada je bio predhodni....Neko uzima jedno ili drugo ,neko ne uzima nista...
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Osnovni PCT:
Klomid
Dan 1: 200mg (mnogi preporucuju 300mg ali za mene licno je to previse zbog nuspojava bez obzira sto je samo jedan dan u pitanju.
Dan 2-10: 100mg ED
Dan 11-21: 50mg ED
Nolvadex:
Dan 1 - 14: 20mg ED
Dan 15 - 30: 10mg ED
ja cu uraditi ovako pct,ovako je sele napisao na forumu yu fitness i proviron 7 dana poslje prvog uzimanja po 50 mg svaki dan,,,,,,,,samo me malo ovaj clo,mifen zabrinjava zbog njegovih nus pojava ali ok,,,igle 23 gauge dobivam u petak i pocinjem sa kurom
mozda bi bilo dobro da sele napise malo vise o pct jer nema nesto puno informacija ovdje ne bi skodilo da vise znamo.
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Netreba ti proviron tj nije ga uopste ni pametno ni potrebno koristiti u PCT-U jer i on supresuje prirodnu proizvodnju.
Pct je ok nema sta da se pise...volimo jendostavno!!!
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pogresno sam napisao,,proviron uzimam samo tokom ciklusa,, u drugoj sedmici kure po 50mg,,,,vidimo se nakon 9sedmica postavit cu slike,,bye
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Netreba ti proviron tj nije ga uopste ni pametno ni potrebno koristiti u PCT-U jer i on supresuje prirodnu proizvodnju.
pa imam jedno pitanje vezano uz proviron u PCT-u....
ako je on kao takav supresivan ,zasto se s njim liječe muskarci koji imaju problema sa manjim brojem spermija....jer bi u pravilu on kao takav trebao samo pogorsati stvari...zar ne ;)
pa ako bi mi mogao kao malo to pojasniti... :blush:
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Zavisi sta zelis od PCT-a :rolleyes01:
Ako je to veci broj spermija onda udri po provironu.
A ako je cilj povratak prirodnog testosterona onda nemoj.
Niko nije rekao da je previse supresivan nego da i on utice na oporavak i da ga netreba uzimati ako neko zeli skroz da se oporavi.
Ja ovdje objasnjavam bilderki nacin koristenja ovih lijekova a nema potrebe da znam za sta se sve koriste nego samo kako uticu i na sta uticu tokom/poslije ciklusa.
Dakle cinjenica je da je proviron steroid koji je slabasan da bilo ko napreduje od njega ali ipak supresuje prirodni test i ipak JESTE steroid,a ako se skidas sa steroida onda bi ih trebao valjda i prestati uzimati :rolleyes01:
Usput u nekim klinickim studijama se tribestan pokazao puno bolji od provirona za spermice
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hvala na pojašnjenju.... :)